Transcript Brainwaves Episode 120

This is a transcript of Brainwaves Episode 120.

Direct quotes are in italics.


Brainwaves Intro


Iain McAllister: Hello everyone. I’m Iain McAllister

Oliver Kinne: And I’m Oliver Kinne, and this is brainwaves episode 120 bringing you the best in tabletop gaming news. These are the headlines for the week of 1st of May, 2023.

Wizards saddle up with the Pinkertons 

Hasbro and Mattel Assemble 

Hasbro’s finances get the Magic Touch 

all this and more in this episode of Brainwaves 

Iain: In the 1850s in America a security guard and detective agency was created by Scottish born Cooper Alan Pinkerton. Throughout the history of the United States they have been an equally idolized and vilified organization. Mostly the latter due to their frequent involvement in the union breaking action on the side of the breakers. 

Now you would be forgiven for thinking that the Pinkertons is an anachronism, consigned to the annals of history. However they are still very much around and are currently a subsidiary of Securitas AB, a swedish-based security services company. 

Well what’s this got to do with tabletop games I hear you ask? Well Wizards of the Coast sent the Pinkertons after a YouTube channel for revealing the next expansion to Magic the Gathering a couple of weeks early. 

This was first reported on the YouTube channel oldschoolmtg, by the owner of that channel Dan Cannon and then later picked up by io9 and Gizmodo where Linda Codega, who joined us on our OGL special, reported on the incident. 

Dan had got his hands on the Magic: The Gathering set “March of the Machine: Aftermath” This isn’t due out until May and on a video on his channel he revealed about 75% of the limited set. 

Within a week there was a knock at Dan’s door one morning and representatives from the Pinkertons were on the other side of it. Linda Codega at io9 talked to Dan by email he said:

Oliver: “as soon as my wife answered the door they aggressively asked for me by my full name… announced themselves as the Pinkerton Agency (which I am very familiar with their reputation), and said they were there to recover ‘stolen goods’.”

Iain: Dan goes on to say that they were initially very forceful making their way into his house. He got them back outside and they eventually backed down on the aggressive rhetoric. They claimed he was in receipt of stolen property throughout. They claimed copyright infringement and went on to say that Dan could face up to 10 years in jail and that there might be up to $200,000 in fines and legal fees. Dan said the treatment by the pinkertons made his wife cry.

While the Pinkertons were present Dan had a conversation by phone with a representative Wizards of the Coast where he agreed to return the product and was told he would be compensated with replacement product being sent out to him. 

Wizards said in response that they: 

Oliver: “strongly refutes this depiction of events, which contradicts both the report from the investigation as well as the conversation between the individual and the Wizards of the Coast representative after the interaction in question.” 

Iain: The company also stated that 

Oliver: “under no circumstances would we instruct any employee or contracted agency to intimidate an individual.”

Iain: Canon says he was not aware of any embargo on revealing these particular cards and believes he managed to obtain them through a distribution error where this expansion was sent out rather than the previous one which was simply called “March of the Machines”.

Now Linda went a little further in their reporting on io9. According to sources inside Wizards back in 2017 the Pinkertons were sent out to investigate the theft of a sheet of foil cards from the then next big expansion Ixalan, I hope I pronounced that correctly. At the time Wizards were transparent about the nature of the theft saying that in order to retrieve stolen property they worked

Oliver: “with a number of groups and individuals, including private investigators, investigators who specialize in supply chains, cyber security experts, and local law enforcement.”

Linda goes on to make another connection between Wizards and the Pinkertons. 

Robin M Klimek who is the current director of security and risk management at Hasbro used to be the director of Supply Chain Security Practice at Pinkerton Consulting and Investigations. The current manager of global investigations is also a former Pinkerton agent. 

Oliver: wow

Iain: now the reaction across most of the tabletop gaming community was “The Pinkertons still exist? What?” and yeah they do still exist and this seems like an absolutely massive overreaction to something that was leaked, okay a couple of weeks early and yes Wizards are going to want to find out exactly how that happened of course they are they don’t want their product to leak out early I can totally understand that side of it, but a massive reaction from a company that is still in the throes of having the community being a bit angry with them over the OGL debacle at the start of the year.

Did no one think about this? I mean absolutely astonishing. 

Oliver: don’t you know me just send like a cease and desist letter or something like that 

Iain: yes send a cease and desist 

Oliver: Instead of going around someone’s house I mean even even if it wasn’t intimidating and you know you know like bailiff’s always presented as being intimidated but just sending anyone around even the nicest person is it’s a bit weird so let alone a you know company like the pinkertons and 

Iain: yeah absolutely 

Oliver: yeah it’s bizarre it is absolutely bizarre just send a letter ask for it to you know be removed or whatever it may be your items to be returned if then there’s still no response fair enough and then on top of this it seems that there’s lots of connections between Wizards and this Pinkerton company so I don’t know what’s going on behind the scenes it seems a bit odd 

Iain: it does um the article does state that the Wizards did try to reach out to Dan a few times by phone but since he’s an internet presence why not email him or something or like message him on his YouTube channel that you knew about. There there seems to be multiple ways to maybe reach out to him and go “hey you’ve got some product a little bit early ahead of time can we get it back please we will compensate you of course”. 

Their were much nicer ways to handle this 

Oliver: just comment on the video or something 

Iain: yeah anything 

Oliver: that is bizarre it is absolutely bizarre so I, I don’t know how why they’ve got it to this point it’s really strange 

Iain: anyway Oliver let’s go up the ladder and talk about the parent company of Wizards Hasbro 

Oliver: yes Hasbro who are owners of Wizards of the Coast among other companies and many well-known brands, and Mattel a leading Global toy company, announced on 24th of April 2023 that they have entered into multi-year licensing agreements to create co-branded toys and games from some of their most popular brands. 

Well Hasbro will create Barbie branded Monopoly games Mattel will produce Transformers branded Uno games. According to Circana a US based marketing research company Barbie, Hot Wheels, Uno, and Monopoly are the top selling brands globally in their respective categories. 

Nick Karamanos, senior vice president of entertainment partnerships at Mattel said: 

Iain: “We are excited to pair some of the most popular brands together for the first time. This collaboration features world-class IP, celebrates the timeless appeal of these brands, and creates unique play opportunities for fans.”

Oliver: Casey Collins president Global licensed consumer products and Business Development added:

Iain:  “With the major theatrical releases of the Transformers and Barbie movies in summer 2023, we’re excited to bring brand-new play experiences to fans, families, and movie and toy lovers all around the world. Working with iconic brands in pop culture truly showcases our strategy in action, as we continue to expand our product experiences for audiences everywhere.”

Oliver: So there we have it, two giants combined like uh Transformers themselves. So here is the usual yet another Monopoly this time with Barbie branded yeah I don’t know how that’s going to work but I’m sure there’ll be a Monopoly game of life Barbie style thing I don’t know and then 

Iain: yeah 

Oliver: Transformers Uno games ship you know why not it all fits together so yeah it just you know it’s making taking advantage of the IPs working together and making more money by the sounds of it 

Iain: yeah it feels to me like they’re maybe just scratching the surface with some simple things like new themes of Monopoly, new themes of Uno and then maybe we’ll see something a bit more grandiose down the line as the companies work out how to, how to work together how to bring their IPs together. 

And a side note I’m kind of interested in the new Barbie film coming out its trailers look very strange. 

Oliver: do they? okay yeah something to watch out for.

Well it sounds like Hasbro is making lots of money Iain I think you’ve got some more information

Iain: Yeah sort of is the answer to that one. Yeah we’re going to stick with Hasbro for just a moment as the company has recently released its financial performance for quarter one of 2023. 

The revenues in the first quarter were one billion dollars, a 14% decline year on year. This beat analysts’ predictions of where the company would be sitting at this time. Magic: The Gathering Revenue increased 16% year over year and this was an increase to $229.1 million dollars from $197.2 million in the previous year. 

The total gaming category was up 2% to $386.5 million from $378.8. Wizards of the Coast and the digital gaming segment of the company had increased revenues of 12%. Tabletop Gaming revenue in this part of the company increased 13% and they note that 

Oliver: underlying demand for Magic the Gathering and Dungeons and Dragons remains robust 

Iain: Hasbro are predicting mid-single digit growth for the full year of 2023 in this segment of the company. Chris Cox, CEO of Hasbro, said 

Oliver: “First quarter results came in ahead of our expectations and position Hasbro to meet our full-year financial targets, “Wizards of the Coast and Digital Gaming delivered strong fan engagement. Segment revenues increased 12%, including a 16% revenue increase in MAGIC: THE GATHERING, behind the successful release of Phyrexia: All Will Be One. 

Dungeons and Dragons: Honor Among Thieves delivered strong critical and audience reviews pointing to a promising long life including home entertainment and streaming, while also introducing our newest Franchise Brand to tens of millions of new fans around the world and positioning DUNGEONS & DRAGONS for robust full-year growth. 

“We’ve made significant progress in implementing our Blueprint 2.0 strategy, including heightening our focus on high-growth, high-profit categories; improving our cost structure; and adding talented executives to our leadership team. The sale process for the eOne TV and film assets is ongoing and we expect to provide an update during the second quarter,”. “The global Hasbro team continues to execute our strategy to unlock the value of our rich IP library across our growth priorities including in gaming, direct-to-consumer and licensing.”

Iain: Cox also noted that the collaborations that Magic has seen with other properties like Warhammer are doing very well, and that the Lord of the Rings set that is forthcoming is seeing strong pre-order sales. 

Hasbro shares jumped 12% on the announcement of their results. 

Well it seems that Wizards, Magic: The Gathering, and Dungeons and Dragons continue to prove cash cows for Hasbro, whereas the rest of the company has had a bit of a downturn. Hasbro shares did jump on the announcement so it seems overall investors are kind of happy, and they are no doubt really happy to see the reception of the Dungeons and Dragons film which I haven’t been to see yet I don’t know about you Oliver 

Oliver: yeah I’ve seen it and I really quite enjoyed it. Yeah it doesn’t take itself too seriously so that’s quite nice to see I was expecting a really serious Dungeons and Dragons you know film but no it’s just lots of laughter, lots of fun. A bit of a nod to the original animated version and yeah really enjoyable. But yeah as you say it’s just nice to see that the market responded positively but it also shows that I think Hasbro has a lot of pressure to make Wizards, MTG, and DnD work really hard to make more money or improve the other segments or sell them off in the case of EOne except that EOne obviously I think was the company behind the Dungeons and Dragons film so that’s probably why they’ve hung on to it for a bit longer I don’t know. 

Iain: yeah I’m not sure I don’t know if anyone were behind the film as such they were going to be like doing TV bits and pieces but yeah Hasbro has eventually sold them on. There’s a bunch of other detail in the report that we’ll share in the show notes and you can dig into that yourselves if you want folks. It’s all quite dry but those were the sort of highlights that we picked out that were relevant to the sort of tabletop gaming we discuss. 

Oliver: well next are the updates


Oliver: We’ve reported many times on the RPG personality Zak Sabbath and the accusations around his behaviour and subsequent lawsuits. There was a recent lawsuit involving Cam Banks, best known for his work on Cortex System RPG we don’t know the details of the lawsuit but this was posted to Cam’s Twitter on 13th of April

Iain: Apology

Over the last decade I’ve made tweets referring to Zak Smith. In these tweets I went beyond ordinary or honest criticism, and referred to other allegations of criminal or abusive behaviour against Zak that have not been proved. I accept that I don’t have any personal knowledge of any allegations I’ve referred to regarding Smith, and it was a mistake to refer to any serious allegations against him as if they had been proved. Everyone has a right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. I am sorry for the effect that these tweets have had on Zak and his professional reputation. 

I am admitting this because Mr. Smith sued me. After 2 years I’ve found no proof he did anything wrong, online or off. I have paid Mr Smith a cash settlement. 

With Cam’s signature and the date at the end. And Zak Smith he refers to in there there is Zak Sabbath. 

Oliver: there was an outpouring of support for cam across the tabletop industry and a fundraiser was started to help with legal costs that we will link to in the show notes. They’ll also be a link to an article detailing the history of Zak Smith’s lawsuit. 

Iain: After reporting on the shutdown of publisher Andrews McNeil in episode 116 we are happy to report that Green Ronin publishing announced on the 21st of April 2023 that they assigned an agreement to publish CypherCo’s “Into the Motherland’s” role-playing game. 

The game began as a critically acclaimed streaming show in 2020 followed by a $360,000 Kickstarter to bring an afrofuturist Vision to the tabletop. The game takes place on Vutoa a distant World settled by survivors of fictional African Emperor Mansa Munsa’s expedition that left Earth a thousand years ago. Players will learn about the diverse cultures of their world, see what terrifying enemies await them, and find out if they can continue to survive on their adopted Homeworld. 

Green Ronin president Chris Pramas said: 

Oliver: “We’re delighted to work with Tanya DePass and B. Dave Walters. They’ve created something special with Into the Mother Lands.”

Iain: CyberCo’s Tanya DePass added: 

Oliver: “Green Ronin is supporting us by bringing the game to new players, retailers and more. Our Kickstarter backers will get the game first, but then it will have a wider release. The IP, world, actual play, and all properties are our crew’s creations but everyone’s to enjoy. We’re ecstatic to work with Green Ronin, a legendary publisher, to bring the game to backers, players, and storytellers.”

Iain: Pramas clarifies that Green Ronin’s role is merely to publish the game and get it into book and game stores as well as other retail channels. The game itself is person-of-color created and owned and Green Ronin’s goal is to help the game reach the widest possible audience. More information and previews of “Into the Motherlands” will be announced in the coming months. 

Well it’s great to see that game becoming a reality after the problems we reported on previously. It’s especially exciting to a game that’s created and owned by people of color and we need a lot more diversity in our hobby, we’ve said that multiple times on this cast and this is just one more step in the right direction. 

Oliver: yeah absolutely it’s great to see I know very little about this but by the sounds of it this is a real big step forward and I guess certainly the Kickstarter Backers will be happy that this is actually becoming a reality now. 

Iain: yeah 

Oliver: and yeah just in yet another game, well I say yet another game, but another game that’s created by people of color and and owned by them as well it’s great to see that we have that coming more into the hobby so yeah nice I’ll be checking that one out myself I think. 

Iain: and talking about kickstarters Oliver 

Oliver: yes in episode 116 we touched on the late delivery of the kickstarter “Chai Tea for Two from Steve games it seems this company may be in more trouble than we thought. 

A recent update to the company’s status on the official Canadian government website has put the company into involuntary dissolution. This happened as the company has not filed tax returns for the last three years, which is as far as we can tell the entire time the company has been incorporated. This means the company is no longer a corporation, but doesn’t necessarily mean it is going out of business. 

Backers on the kickstarter have not been informed officially though Dave Chapman, the community manager for the company, is still replying best he can. Dave has implied he might not be doing that for much longer if the company is going out of business. 

Now first of all we obviously don’t know what the legal implications are in Canadian law I guess in the UK If a company doesn’t file reports something similar happens but we don’t know how that affects the directors of the company whether it be struck off the register or what happens all we know is obviously nothing has been filed for three years and that’s obviously quite serious and if thats length of the company existing then that might have some implications of you know the intentions of the directors of the company. 

So we don’t know, I mean it’s all interpretation this end, but of course we hope that this game might get rescued, maybe by Naylor Games like that with ITB we never know but yeah it doesn’t look good and um hopefully all the content creators that uh you know were so in favor of these games might be highlighting issues like this that you know yeah kickstarters are great and doing previews and I’ve done the video actually I’ve done an unboxing of “Chai Tea for Two” I’m just as guilty. I’ve been sent a copy by them and you know I’ve met them in person they’re lovely people but yeah you don’t know what happens behind the scenes and things go wrong and here we are um things don’t get delivered so yeah what can I say. 

Iain: Yeah, I mean yeah just uh our regular reminder that Kickstarter is not a store and your money is at risk effectively when you back a Kickstarter even with a company that has successfully delivered a couple of kickstarters before then. 

Oliver: There are never any guarantees with Kickstarter

Iain: Now, let’s go on to the rest of the news


Iain: Renegade Games publishers of Power Rangers, GI Joe, and Transformer set RPGs amongst many other games has appointed a new VP of sales. 

Andrew Lupp joins the team with over 20 years of sales experience most recently with PSI distribution. Lupp said 

Oliver: “As a gamer and an industry professional, my family and I have always loved Renegade Games and the joy they bring to so many people around the world. It was 20 years ago when I first met Scott, and since that time I have worked with him and his staff in multiple capacities in the game industry. I’m so happy that we have been brought together again. In a way, it feels a bit like coming home. The folks at Renegade are amazing, with a real talent for producing quality entertainment and I consider myself so lucky to be among them.”

Iain: President Scott Gator said of the hire

Oliver: “We’re all thrilled for Andy to join us here at Renegade. Andy is a long-time gamer with decades of sales experience in our industry. He has a passion for gaming and a desire to bring new players to the table. We know he’s going to be a great fit for Renegade and all its partners as well.”

Iain: Congratulations on the new position Andrew

Oliver: yeah congratulations

Iain:  And now it’s a bunch of awards stuff starting with the Diana Jones.

Oliver: Yeah the Diana Jones Awards is one of the stranger and more interesting accolades that the tabletop hobby gives out. The main award is for excellence in gaming that’s given out each year during a ceremony at Gen Con in the United States. 

Since 2021 the award has expanded with an emerging designers program highlighting up and coming voices in game design the program specifically focuses on marginalized voices and the winner gets an all-expenses paid trip to Gen Con the awards have just announced their nominees for this year: 

  • Alison Cybe
  • Anthony Joyce-Rivera
  • Basheer Ghouse
  • Erin Roberts
  • Kayla Dice
  • Mary Georgescu
  • Seb Pines
  • Sen H.H.S

Congratulations to all the nominees and you can read more about the work on the Diana Jones award website that we’ll link to in the show notes. 

So yes Diana Jones Awards I mean I’ve I’ve been keeping an eye on it recently I’ve actually must say missed it a bit this year so it’s nice to see that the nominees are out after have a closer look but there’s always a very interesting games that have been highlighted through the Diana Jones award and you know interesting designers and as it says obviously highlighting up and coming voices so it’s it’s great to see. 

Iain: yeah and as we said in the piece there the Diana Jones award doesn’t just, it rewards excellence in gaming that’s that’s its point so it’s done all sorts of things, it’s awarded Gen Con if I remember rightly in the past is awarded events, designers, particular games it’s a really interesting and diverse award. Yeah we really, really like the Diana Jones awards. 

So yeah again congratulations to all nominees. 

Now Iain on to another set of awards. 

Iain: Yes indeed Mensa is the internationally recognized organization where you can compare your quantifiable intelligence against the rest of the world. Whether you put faith in IQ tests or not the organization is an advocate for games that they think are 

Oliver: original in concept challenging and well designed

Iain: every year they choose five games to draw attention to and give the coveted Mensa Select award. The winners for 2023 have been announced and they are 

  • Trekking through history, designed by Charlie Bink and published by Underdog games
  • Mille Fiori, designed by Reiner Knizia, and published by Schimdt Spiele
  • Gartenbau, designed by David Abelson and Alex Johns, and published by 25th century games
  • Akropolis, designed by Jules Messaud and published by Gigamic
  • Boop, designed by Scott Brady, and published by Smirk & Laughter Games

Now Boop also won an award in the American Tabletop Awards recently. 

Oliver: again congratulations 

Iain: yeah a nice selection of um games there I do like the Mensa Awards a little bit because it’s an organization coming from outside of tabletop gaming, looking at tabletop gaming in a different way and it did say in the piece that that I read that one of their, one of the things they look at is also like the sort of affordability of the game how much sort of bang for your buck do you get out of that game as well

Oliver: okay yeah 

Iain: they also look at a sort of value for money proposition yeah in the game as well which is great interesting 

Oliver: yeah yeah it’s a good selection there and yeah as we said congratulations to the winners 

Iain: I’ll really have to try Boop I’ve seen it on a couple two or three Awards list now 

Oliver: yeah I was going to say

Iain: and it looks adorable as well 

Oliver: It does. 

And finally we’ve got another award the Golden Geeks. eEery year the Behemoth that is BoardGameGeek gives out the golden geek awards, a community voted on set of awards. 

The awards have entered the final stage with several nominations per category for everyone to choose from. If you want your chance to vote on your favourite games, podcasts, and apps do it soon, the deadline is May the 7th. 

And of course everyone present here, we we haven’t been nominated for best podcasts

Iain: Boo

Oliver: so we’re highly disappointed and we will not enter the Golden Geeks ever again. No definitely vote for us next year so there we go quick plug there. But yeah congratulations to all the nominees and we can’t wait to see who’s actually winning in the various categories there’s some interesting games that I’ve seen on the list so we’ll see.


Iain: and now a little break for some jobs, opportunities, and events. 

There is a new event coming up in Edinburgh. It’s on the 2nd of December 2023 it’s the tabletop and graphic storytelling festival or TAGS, which will host 40 to 50 independent craters with an emphasis on lifting up marginalized voices. The day will celebrate collaborative and visual storytelling in its many forums such as Comics, RPGs, board games and Zines. 

Yeah sounds like an interesting little day uh you will try and get along with that one myself and write up a little report for the blog. 

Oliver: nice 

Iain: and we came across a Facebook group called tabletop jobs. I had known about it before but we keep forgetting to mention it on the cast we’re going to put it in the show notes uh for all the cast going forward and if you want to sort of like get really up-to-date jobs information of tabletop game jobs, mostly US but there are some UK in there as well then do go and check that page out. 

Oliver: well that leaves us with our patreon shout outs. 

So as always we’d like to thank everyone who’s supporting us in any way but obviously financially especially and particularly we’d like to shout out to James Naylor, from Naylor Games and Sean Newman, from gamealot if you do want to support us as well we can do that via patreon or have a look on our support us page at and of course if you want to get yourself some lovely metallic dies from metallic dice games enter promo code ROLLWITHBRAINS at and get yourself a little discount and well good give us a little bit of money as well and in the same way if you want a nice t-shirt or hoodie I don’t know actually actually what is in this collection but certainly on some people have a look at and you’ll see there some nice merchandise and if you get yourself something we get a little decent cut out of that as well. 

Iain: yes indeed we do


Iain: and a little bit of Pokemon news to lead us out on the show

Oliver:  Yes, I have the pleasure of talking about Pokemon! 

On the 14th of April the Pokemon company released a new expansion pack for the trading card game. The release had two distinct packs in it called Clay Burst and Snow Hazard each having very rare cards in them that collectors have been going wild over. The new craze for the game has led to the Pokemon company taking to the official Japanese website to say that all product for the same game was sold out they said 

Iain: “We will continue to do our best so that everyone can enjoy the Pokemon card game.”

Oliver: It’s unclear at this time when the situation will calm down and cards will be more readily available, but the company has promised to boost production. So there we go Pokemon craze going even crazier um yeah so even bigger companies have problems with distribution and production and Manufacturing it’s one of those things. It doesn’t just affect the smaller kickstarters or self-publishers but even giant companies. 

So yeah if you want to get a special Pokemon pack uh be out of luck at the moment by the sound of it yeah. 

Iain: Unless you’re this guy. There’s a different way to get Pokemon! Pokemon has once more found its way into the world of crime. 

A picture was posted to a popular Pokemon Facebook group of a table stacked high with hit cards from the Fusion Strike Pokemon set which was originally released in 2021. These are rare cards so the possibility of a collector having multiple thousands of copies, as were shown in the photo, seemed very remote. 

A company called Trading Card World in Dallas, had been contacted by the person who had these cards and Trading Card World informed them that this must either be a bunch of fakes or stolen due to the sheer number of cards present. The potential seller then revealed that they had worked for a Pokemon card printing company and Trading Card World contacted the Pokemon company saying, would you like to look into this. 

Things have escalated somewhat, and the cards were recovered, and law enforcement is now involved. The Pokemon company provided a statement to PC Gamer who reported the story saying 

Oliver: “We take the protection of our IP and associated products very seriously. This matter remains under investigation and we cannot comment on details at this time. However, we can confirm that Sword & Shield booster packs and products were shipped to retail as intended and we have no indication that the integrity of the products were impacted by any confirmed or unconfirmed theft.

“Furthermore, we continue to significantly invest in both the production and security of our TCG business. We value the faith our fans put in us and our products, and these investments are intended to help us continue to maintain their trust.”

Now interestingly this relates to a conspiracy theory in the Pokemon Community. It went around about the time the Fusion Strike set was out. Folk were convinced that the set had an artificially low pull rate for rares and it seems now that they may have been actually correct if this person’s stealing cards direct off the line. 

Oliver: there we go

Iain: there you go a very very stupid thief there. 

Oliver: yes next time be a bit clever about it but there we go 

Iain: yeah sell them one at a time on eBay or something yeah 

Oliver: yeah don’t post a picture of thousands of them 

Iain: yeah 

Oliver: on your kitchen table or whatever in very good condition 

Iain: yeah. Anyway folks thank you very much for listening. If you like what you listen to then the best way to help us out is to share the podcast and drop us a review and rating on iTunes. 

You can also follow Oliver at  and you can follow the giant brain on Twitter we’re @thegiantbrain Instagram, giantbrainuk, Facebook, the giant brain you are welcome to join our community on our Discord we’ll put an invite in the show notes. 

Our website where you’ll find all the casts and articles by myself are and you can email us about anything you’d like us to cover on the show or any comments you got on any of the stories we’ve covered on this one at [email protected] 

Iain: we’ll see you in a couple weeks time thanks very much 

Oliver: thank you very much bye